( Note: This conversation contains some minor spoilers.)

WHO:	Mixed Reviewers Jill Cozzi and Gabriel Shanks
WHAT:	A meeting-of-the-minds over a steaming hot swig o'swamp water.
HOW:	Chicken appetizers and coffee
WHERE:	The Elite Cafe, on Columbus Avenue at 68th St.

GABRIEL: What's interesting about this is that I think Almodovar has one of the most visceral and magnetic styles of any of the filmmakers working today. Here, where he's really, well, the first sort of snippy headline I was going to write when we started was "Almodovar meets Hitchcock." Even when he's paying homage to other great filmmakers, and in this there are so many other noir films which are referenced and influenced, and all of that; it still remains an Almodovar thing. It's still got all the bright colors, it's still got all the postmodern sexuality and life and things twisting back in on themselves; I just really loved it.

JILL: Wait...I'm not a virgin, I did see Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down.

GABRIEL: Ah-ha!

JILL: So I'm not a virgin. As soon as you mentioned the bright colors, I realized -- wait a minute, I have seen something else.

GABRIEL: I think this film, for a film that drifts between comedy and drama without any pattern...

JILL: ...which is hard to do and do well.

GABRIEL: But this balances itself so well, I mean when it starts to fold back in on itself and some of its secrets begin to be revealed, this film's going in places that honestly, no other film I've ever seen goes. It really is unique. It's not predictable, it's not a pattern, it's...

JILL: Well, I'm a sucker for plot twists because I'm naive enough that I almost never see them coming, except in The Others I figured it out fairly quickly. But this one I never saw coming, even though I knew it was film noir, I'd read about it, but I didn't really see it coming.

GABRIEL: Well, I don't think you do, I think you're 40-45 minutes into the film before the central surprise is revealed. But I don't mean to say it was boring prior to that point, the opening credits, with the peeling back of the layers, and the pulp novel feel to it -- it's got energy; this film is just bursting with energy.

JILL: And it grabs you right from the opening credits, with that metaphorical and literal peeling of layers of newspaper like old movie posters being stripped from the wall, and the music, which is very Bernard Herrmann in the opening credits.

GABRIEL: Think about that score. I know we're not taking apart the elements yet, but this score references all the Bernard Herrmann and all the film noir scores throughout the period....choir music! A lot of sacred music; a lot of pop music....and then there's also the Spanish dances, and the ethnic music giving it a place. A score with that many influences shouldn't work.

JILL: No, but it does, and it's the kind of score that you notice all the time but it doesnt overpower the movie the way a score with an overly distinctive style sometimes can, like most notably the kind of scores Philip Glass is doing for movies now, where he tones down the "Philip Glass-ness" a bit, but you're still constantly aware that it's a score by Philip Glass.

GABRIEL: His score for Undertow is that way

JILL: Yeah.

GABRIEL: At first you think, "Oh, well, Philip Glass trying something new," but then you realize, no, it's just Philip Glass. What did you think of the time jumps, the hopping back 20 years, hopping ahead, hopping back?

JILL: I had a little bit of trouble, as I always do with time jumps, figuring out what;s real and what isn't, and what's happening now and exactly where we are. Because the most confusing parts are the "Gael Garcia Bernal in drag" sections, where it's clear that you're jumping forward into the filming of the movie, but you don't even know that there IS a movie at that point...and it starts out in that section--

GABRIEL: -- and you're not even aware that--

JILL: -- Right. So...after the movie is over and you look back, and you realize that Enrique isn't Enrique, and then you realize that what you're seeing in the beginning of the movie is the movie within a movie that you don't even know exists yet. Oh, this is going to be a delight to transcribe, I can tell already. [Transcription note: How prophetic that comment was, for while rewinding the tape that evening, the tape broke, which required hours of painstaking work with the tape -- a 1" x 2" Maxell minicartridge -- along with a perfectly new good cartridge sacrificed to the cause of How It Works, a tiny piece of Scotch tape, and a tweezer, in order to get the thing back into something approaching playing condition. That's why this writeup is two weeks late.]

GABRIEL: I think the time jumps are hard, in terms of chronology, to get, but on another level, because we're really dealing with characters and their interaction, and not really so much with plot in terms of "This happened and then this happened", when things happen, doesn't really matter, because it's all giving you different perspectives on how these characters came to be who they are and what they are.

JILL: And it's all woven together in such a way that it doesn't matter what the chronology is.

GABRIEL: Right. That's what I'm trying to say, is that even though it's difficult to put a timeline together, for a memoir like this, and I know this is at least partially based on Pedro's childhood experiences, like a memoir, it unfolds out of sequence, and that's all right, because it's ll making its own internal connections.

JILL: Right. You know, there are some wonderful shots in this film that really stuck out in my mind, and this is where I should have written some of them down, and I didn't, because this is a movie where if you look away to write something down, you're going to miss something cool. the dissolve shot -- and this is where his expertise in casting comes in -- the way he cast the younger versions of these two men, it's very hard to do so that you believe that these kids grow up into these men, but the way he just dissolves from the young Ignacio to the adult Ignacio -- that was an astounding piece of film because it worked perfectly.

GABRIEL: Absolutely.

JILL: And even without that, you could still believe that boy growing up into this man.

GABRIEL: Well, the cinematography is kind of like the rest of the story, in that it has these moments of grand eloquence and beauty -- those hundreds of boys out doing calisthenics; that beautiful shot overhead.

JILL: A couple of shots in the swimming pool, where you see his face diving into the water, and then he dives over Enrique like a dolphin.

GABRIEL: But then contrasted against those beautiful moments, you've got two drag queens stealing the silverware from the church! It's this hilarious, Billy Wilder-esque sort of thing.

JILL: But of course by that point you're already feeling that it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys. That they're stealing from the church isn't shocking, because by then you're thinking, "You go, girl!"

GABRIEL:Exactly. But in such a character-driven drama, I think Almodovar is on an unbelievable run -- this film, All About My Mother, Talk to Her....there are very few directors in the world who've had a run of three films that are that consistent -- he's won Oscars for the last two. Having had such brilliant actors is really the difference between what I think is this and maybe some of the Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down, Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown kind of films where there were some very good actors, but also some very campy actors, some actors who were maybe playing it a little too burlesque. Here, you've got actors who are taking these absurdist situations, and playing them with a real emotional truth and a real honesty, and that makes all the difference. Your heart just breaks for some of these characters going through some of these things, that in the hands of a lesser director and lesser actors, you'd write off in a second.

I've put off talking about it as long as I can. What did you think of Gael Garcia Bernal?

JILL: (laughs) The Latin Jude Law.

GABRIEL: (laughs.)

JILL: I mean that in all seriousness. He is a character actor trapped in That Face. He can do just about anything. He's brilliant. He can inhabit a character. He's distractingly pretty, which is the one real problem, and it's the same problem Jude Law has, in that he's not a pretty boy, and he's not a handsome man, he's sort of this thing that transcends gender. But again, it's the same problem: what do you do when you're a character actor and you're trapped in that kind of look? We mentioned this right after the film was over -- I had read that he looks like Julia Roberts when he's in drag, but we both agreed that he looks like Juliette Lewis, which is actually not a compliment about his looks.

GABRIEL: I think what's really amazing about an actor who's so clearly male and heterosexual and all those things, is how he really doesn't give himself over to campy stereotypes in -- he's not really doing the whole "girlfriend" thing that most actors his age might be inclined to go for. He really works so hard to make it as good as it can be, and you can feel that on screen. In the first half hour of the movie, I felt this was going to be a good performance. As the layers started to be stripped away and the secrets started to be revealed, I realized how transformative a performance this was going to be for him. Honestly, I'd nominate it. He's playing three or four characters in this film.

JILL: Absolutely. And as his character changes and the layers of this character start to fall away, his whole demeanor and his whole carriage change, and he carries himself differently in each different version of this character that he plays.

GABRIEL: I think it's a phenomenal -- sooner or later, he's going to get English language work, and when he does, I think people are going to go nuts for him; perhaps in the way they originally did with [Antonio] Banderas before he started doing crappy movies.

JILL: And become -- I think it was one of the critics for the New York Times, and this is such a great description I wish I'd thought of it, it might have been Tony Scott, who called him "the campiest heterosexual left in Hollywood."

GABRIEL: (laughs) Well, Almodovar has unleashed some major talents onto the world market -- Banderas is the big one, but also Penelope Cruz. Her first big film was All About My Mother. But what ends up happening is that once they go Hollywood, they end up making vastly inferior films to the films they made that were Spanish language. If you're reading this, Gael, DON'T DO THAT!

JILL: It's interesting, because Tom Carson had a piece in Esquire magazine last month contrasting the career paths both of these guys have taken since Y Tu Mamà También came out --

GABRIEL: You mean Gael and Diego Luna.

JILL: Right. And he was blasting some of the stuff Diego Luna has done, taking as an example something like Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights and playing playing "Zany Ethnic Sidekick #2 in The Terminal, but he's also done some other work in Criminal, and Nicotina, and he's not just trying to get the Porsche. I think the article was a little bit harsh. I don't think you can blame an actor who's young, and handsome, and well-thought-of, for going after some money while you're hot. I think that's kind of unfair.

GABRIEL: Well, but there is -- if you lump those two boys together, the obvious comparison is Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, where the general wisdom is Affleck reached for the stars and then he fell, and he's been on the ground ever since. I mean, have you SEEN the trailer for Surviving Christmas? He's in a free-fall, whereas Damon has managed a smarter career. Maybe not as showy a career -- certainly he's not getting the lead roles Affleck has had, but it's been a smart career path

JILL: And I think he's been able to weather that awkward age that young actors have. And going back to these two guys [Luna and Bernal], these are guys in their early to mid twenties, who are managing to play interesting, fleshed-out characters who aren't just high school boys. Because that's the trap that most American actors fall into, is that you're essentially playing teenagers until you're old enough to play the Interesting Older Man.

GABRIEL: One thing that would be interesting to people about Bernal right now, is if they are able to go to The Motorcycle Diaries one week, and then BAD EDUCATION the next. You're going to get -- as a double feature, you're going to see massive versatility in someone who's well under twenty-five, am I right?

JILL: He may be twenty-five now.

GABRIEL: It's astonishing how different his Che Guevara was from this role.....what else?

JILL: I like the way he handled the ending shot, the way he handles the "what are they doing now?" piece, with the panels from the garage door coming forward...the in-jokes -- the film noir festival.

GABRIEL: Well, Almodovar is such a smart film guy; he's kind of like Woody Allen in that regard, in that when he pays homage, he makes sure you know it right on the screen. There's clips from Spanish movies that he's referencing, the film noir festival...they're not only in-jokes, they're a Cliff Notes into what he thinks you ought to watch for further enjoyment.

JILL: That's what I was going to say, that he's a very generous provider of references for aspiring film buffs in that he doesn't regard it as a private club for the people who stand in line for Woody Allen movies. It's like he says, "I'm going to explain to you what the references are; I'm going to educate you." But he does it in such a way that it doesn't violate the "show, don't tell" rule OR hit you with a sledgehammer.

GABRIEL: I'm going to show you a scene from Asi Es la Mujer, that these boys are watching and are influenced by, but outside I'm going to make sure to show you a poster for the film --

JILL: ...so that you can do the math.

GABRIEL: I think this is a very accessible film --

JILL: -- for everyone except homophobic straight males. This is a very, very gay film.

GABRIEL: They may need to see it for just that particular reason.

JILL: I agree. I mean, we haven't even talked about that perspective.

GABRIEL: We can talk about it.

JILL:It's kind of the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the room because it is a lot more explicit than most mainstream films are...which isn't saying a whole lot, but...

GABRIEL: Do you think it's explicit, really?

JILL: Well, as the Mixed Reviews Resident Middle-Aged Suburbanite, I...

GABRIEL: Wait a minute, we have Ned!.

JILL: Ned is much hipper than I am.

GABRIEL: I agree with you in that I think any time you have two men showing affection on screen, it means more than seeing two straight people, because straight people don't see it very much. But there's no penis shot in this movie...there's no full-frontal. There's sex, but it's all faces, you're not seeing bodies.

JILL: But it's a transitional film, as I see it, in terms of art films for straight people in that it presents gay sex in a way that isn't going to completely weird people out, but it's still more than most people might have gone to see, let's say, All About My Mother, have seen. I'm thinking mostly about the old people who go to the Clearview art house in my town.

GABRIEL: But honestly, don't you think Queer as Folk is more explicit than this movie?

JILL: I don't know, because I don't watch Queer as Folk, I don't have Showtime.

GABRIEL: Well, there's that. I hear what you're saying, but I also think that -- I would not want to give the impression that this film is limited to a gay audience, or that it's somehow pornographic in any way.

JILL: Absolutely not.

GABRIEL:There's a sexuality in the film, and it's definitely a film about men; there are very few women in the movie.

JILL: But it is something that your average suburban straight person needs to be aware of before going in. I think it's part of this transition that it weirds you out because you're not used to seeing it, and that will change.

GABRIEL: But the same might be said of the transvestitism.

JILL: But I think people are accustomed to seeing drag at this point

GABRIEL: Well, certainly in Almodovar movies they are. I think it's -- as gay man, I'm watching this movie and loving it, and I'm aware that there's gay stuff in it, but as opposed to some other -- the movies that I think of as gay movies coming out this month -- Tying the Knot, Bear Cub, Cowboys and Angels, which came out last month; Testosterone -- these are movies that are made by gay people, for gay people, about gay people, and straight people really aren't invited to the party

JILL: Right. And this doesn't fall into that category

GABRIEL: I don't think this is like that. One of the major plot twists involves the appearance of a sexuality which is not really the sexuality of the person involved, and it argues for a more cosmopolitan, a more polysexual existence. I think there's a lot of things going on.

JILL: But I think for the people for whom gay material is The Bird Cage, it's something they need to be aware of. I think it shouldn't keep you from going to this movie.

GABRIEL: I would hope not. You're sitting here, if you've made it this far into this article, we have to believe you're a long-time Mixed Reviews fan. This site is run by a feminist straight Jew, and a -- faggot, for lack of a better word. I realize that our worldview may not appeal to the gun-toters of the Pacific Northwest.

JILL: They're not reading us anyway.

GABRIEL: Right. They're not reading our site anyway, and maybe this is wishful thinking, but I'm assuming that anyone reading this right now is coming from a more elevated place...who have seen gay people since Nathan Lane did his drag act in The Bird Cage. And honestly, there's so much going on in this movie that is not really about the sexuality of the characters, that I'm hoping people can leap over the fact that there's gay men showing affection for one another in this movie. But maybe not. I'm just going to plug everything. If you're reading our blogs, there's a. constant question of who's voting for Bush. I know they're out there, and to that extent, I think you're right, this movie may not be for everybody. But you know what? It's their loss.

JILL: Well, that's the whole point, is that if you're reasonably cool, to let that stand in your way of seeing this movie, you're really going to be missing something.

GABRIEL:I think so. He's a major, major figure in world cinema at this point, and I read the other day that his next movie is going to be his English language debut, so, we shall see where it goes from here. Well? Final verdict?

JILL: Final verdict...well....

GABRIEL: You always do the final verdict first. I'll do mine first.

JILL: OK, you do yours first.

GABRIEL: I think he wins the triple crown. I think it's three brilliant films in a row, I think it deserves -- the foreign film category may be tough for Oscar this year, but I think this is without a doubt one of the major contenders for the awards season. I think it's an art film for people who are afraid of art films. I think it's totally accessible, easily to get into, and endlessly engrossing and entertaining. And yours?

JILL: Well, I really just did mine, in that if you let some discomfort with the unfamiliar keep you from seeing this film, you'd be missing something really special.

GABRIEL: Cool! The Oscar season has begun!