( Note: This conversation contains some minor spoilers.)

WHO:	Mixed Reviewers Jill Cozzi and Gabriel Shanks
WHAT:	A meeting-of-the-minds over a steaming hot swig o'swamp water.
WHERE:	Via Instant Messenger, between Rockland County and midtown Manhattan.

GABRIEL: I am here. So...THE INCREDIBLES. Very fun.

JILL: Who says that CGI animation doesn't work as well as
conventional. I don't know about you, but within 20 minutes, I had
completely suspended disbelief. This was JUST what I needed after the last week....pure goofy demented fun. This is what I love about Pixar. It's as much about the story as about the animation. You can just imagine the brainstorming sessions they have in creating a film. It's like a room full of the coolest geeks in the world with a wealth of information about both kid mindsets and adult fan culture, brainstorming about "What if...?" In the case of Monsters, Inc., it was "What if the closet monsters that kids are afraid of are real, and being a monster is their job, and they work for some kind of giant monster conglomerate?" Here it's "What if superheroes were real, but because every time a superhero does something heroic, mayhem results, so the government put them into some kind of witness protection program and they had to live like Ozzie and Harriet?" It's so geeky, and yet so accessible.

Of course the premise, and moral to THE INCREDIBLES is "When you make a public appearance at ComicCon, don't fuck with the fans. They can come back and bite you."

GABRIEL: Well, the technology's gotten so detailed and fine that it really is amazing.

JILL: And yet the animation in terms of detail was very stylized...sort of like Japanese anime where the attention is paid to the backgrounds and the humans are done in a very stylized fashion.

GABRIEL: I disagree. I was pretty consistently happy with the animation, especially its loving homage to the DC Comics illustrators of the 1930's and 40's.

JILL:And I saw it as homage to the 1950's Chuck Jones cartoons -- the Feed the Kitty-vintage cartoons. I loved the retro-1950's decor of the suburban house and neighborhood. I loved the way the gags fit right into the story.

GABRIEL: It was as much as part of its own hybrid-time world as Finding Nemo ever was. But what do you mean about the gags?

JILL: The attention to detail...the way that Helen's hips were much wider after the film cuts to 15 years and three kids later. I just KNEW that there was going to be a "Does this make me look fat?"; gag coming later on, and there it was. But they fit it right into the story, and even though you were waiting for it, it was still funny when it happened. Then there's the Dilbert-like look that Bob has while working in the cube farm. These kinds of gags and in-jokes are just tossed casually in there, and if you blink, you'll miss them. They're subtle...not like Tex Avery-type gags where there's a neon sign and an arrow pointing to it. Those are funny in their own way, but they wouldn't hold up over anything longer than a seven-minute cartoon..

GABRIEL: I also think there's a great deal in the film aimed at adults; maybe more than any Pixar effort to date.

JILL: Oh, there's a ton aimed at adults. The relationship between Bob and Helen is very real, except that once he gets back into shape, she seems hornier than any woman with 3 kids is likely to be.

GABRIEL: Heh. I was intrigued by the underlying social message of the piece, which runs counter to the predominant thinking in this country since the mid-80's. You know, the prevailing ideology that "we're all special" THE INCREDIBLES flies in the face of that...it argues that no, in fact, we are NOT all special. Some of us are, and some of us aren't, and those that are truly exceptional should be allowed to follow their own path.

JILL: Yeah...that was pretty subversive.

GABRIEL: His score for Undertow is that way

JILL: Yeah.

GABRIEL: So often, truly gifted kids are held back from greatness due to the educational system's fear of parental reaction...if smart kids get all the attention, dumb kids' parents will throw a fit. THE INCREDIBLES, rather fearlessly I think, takes on the notion of special-ness and somehow rights the scales, for me. It allows for a world of honesty, where we are NOT all the same, where we are not all equally talented or brilliant or creative or interesting.

JILL:And what's wonderful about it is that it celebrates that and shows that allowing kids to do what they do well makes them better adjusted. It also shows the stifling effect of too much conformity.

GABRIEL: Yes, although I felt a little weirded out by that.

JILL: -- Well, the idea of the government resettling people who are "different" is pretty disturbing these days. It's a surprisingly deep movie wrapped up in this hyperkinetic, fantastic wrapper.

GABRIEL: I mean, the daughter is a goth-punk quiet child, who learns to use her powers and suddenly starts wearing pink blouses and bows in her hair? That seemed a bit retro-feminist.

JILL: Well, but you have to understand what teenage girls are
like. I WAS that girl with the hair over her face. It isn't so much the clothes, though she did go from clothes that she could hide behind to clothes that say "Look at me!" Only her ability to hide is real. Girls like that usually WISH they could disappear. In this film, Violet actually can.

GABRIEL: But if you had superpowers, you would suddenly have become Reese Witherspoon?

JILL: Ah, and I didn't see her like that at all. To me it just said that she was able to come out of herself and no longer be ashamed of what she was, because she found (and was permitted to do) what she was good at. It's ridiculous to say that I identified with a CGI animated character, but I did.

GABRIEL: And the symbol for that is bows in the hair? C'mon. I see your point, but there's an uncomfortable, simplified image of femininity in that for me.

JILL: Sure there is. But if you're one of those misfit girls, you'd rather fit in when you're fifteen than anything else. Kids like that rarely can appreciate their own individuality.

GABRIEL: I still loved the film, though. Another thing about THE INCREDIBLES is its voice talents. It benefits from some truly superior work.

JILL: That's what made it seem real. Holly Hunter was terrific in this.

GABRIEL: Totally grounded and solid.

JILL: And of course we have to mention the director Brad Bird, who damn near walked away with the movie as Edna Mode, the designer.

GABRIEL: Is this Craig T. Nelson's best performance ever?

JILL: Yes...maybe his only good performance. Did you just LOVE Edna Mode? Anna Wintour meets Yoko Ono meets Linda Hunt.

GABRIEL: Edna. Cracked me up. What a magnificent twisting of Anna Wintour!

JILL: (laughs) Great minds think alike.

GABRIEL: I've met Wintour, and I have to say, she does act and sound a bit like that.

JILL: This film just seemed so REAL....in a way that Spy Kids never could, for all that it was live action. That seems counterintuitive, but there we are.

GABRIEL: It did have an honesty about its fictious world that, say, Spy Kids lacks. So I guess we both liked it, yes? Niggling details aside?

JILL:That's what's so wonderful about it...you really believe that this is a family of superheroes. The very premise is so preposterous, and yet so grounded. I loved it. Unreservedly

GABRIEL: Good for kids, possibly even better for adults!

JILL: It has some breathtaking moments...that water landing? The way the island was photographed in general? Dash running through the forest being pursued went on too long, but that's only a very minor complaint.

GABRIEL: I don't think my breath was ever taken away, but it is technically magnificent. The design is superb.

JILL: It's a very integrated cartoon universe.

GABRIEL: It made me want to start reading comic books again, like I did when I was a kid. To live in that fantastical place in my imagination. I don't go there enough, I think.

JILL: Well, I didn't read comic books, but I watched Warner Bros. cartoons, and this owes a much larger debt to Warner Bros. than it does to Disney.

GABRIEL: True. That occurred to me as well...that it has nearly zilch to do with the Disney canon. Alright, I must run to a meeting. To sum up? Pretty damn fabulous.

JILL: Another winner from Pixar. Wonderful, funny, a must-see. (That's my blurb whore line.) And just what the doctor ordered after this election.

GABRIEL: We could all use the laughs.